Jack Jurgens's Ministry Library

Panel discussion.

[0:01] We’re going to read together from 2nd Timothy by way of reference and I think every meeting should be a Word of God meeting, so it would be odd if we didn’t read something from the Bible.
So I want to read 2nd Timothy and remind you that this is Paul’s last letter and it may be that within days or weeks of writing this letter that Paul had been martyred, he’d laid down his life for the Lord.

[0:33] So the Apostolic Age was really coming to a close and with the end of the Apostolic Age there was a great emphasis going to be made on the Word of God.

[0:46] So let’s just read first of all in 2 Timothy 1.13 where he says to Timothy to whom he was committing this great trust, hold fast the form of sound words which thou hast heard of me in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
Chapter 2, verse 15, study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth, but shun profane and vain babblings, for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
Chapter 3, verse 14, but continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou has learned them, and that from a child thou has known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. And then in chapter 4 at the beginning, I charge thee therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom. Preach!

[2:08] The Word. And the Lord always blesses to us, of course, the reading of His Word.
Now we’re trying to make this as conversational as possible again this afternoon. I’m really sorry there’s only three of us in the conversation. I would love really to be able to include more, but we might have a long meeting, you might miss your tea, and Henry might be late for the gospel meeting. So that wouldn’t do.
So I have some notes here. I see yesterday Joseph had high-tech notes. I’ve just got a bit of paper, which kind of says that I’m a lot older than he is.
So I’m not sure whether we followed his pattern yesterday. We did to some degree. I’m not sure we’re going to follow exactly what I’ve got written down on this bit of paper, but we are going to start where we’re going to start. And the start that I want to make is to talk to you for a moment about ordinances, or sometimes translated in the authorised version, the King James version of the Bible, as traditions. So this is what 2 Thessalonians 2.15, this is just to get us going and to establish certain things in our mind. This is 2 Thessalonians 2.15, hold, he says, the traditions. We have a tradition, we had a tradition in the UK, particularly England where we had a gospel meeting at 6 30.

[3:35] But I have to tell you that’s not exactly what Paul is saying when he says, hold the traditions. When he says hold, he’s using a word take hold of, possess, the, handing down, which I suppose what a tradition is, but of course in apostolic literature, it’s the idea of apostolic instructions. So what he’s saying is, hold apostolic instructions, hold the ordinances, hold the traditions. This is 1 Corinthians 11 2. And in 1 Corinthians 11 2, we’re to keep the ordinances. It’s a different word, the idea is we’re to retain them, we’re not to let them slip. So what he’s emphasizing in each of those is this, the absolute importance of apostolic teaching for us to keep, to hold, and not to let slip. And in actual fact, we’re to withdraw ourselves, he says in 2 Thessalonians 3, 6, we’re to withdraw ourselves from every brother who walks disorderly, and not after the traditions, the ordinances which he received of us.

[4:46] And so in those passages where he speaks about ordinances, and I’ve just picked those out, they are the three in the New Testament, but I’ve just picked them out as a useful start point, the absolute imperative of the Word of God, the imperative of keeping the Word of God and holding to it.
And especially for us in the day in which we live, we’re thinking in terms of apostolic doctrine from which flows the fellowship that we enjoy.
And that fellowship was actually that which the apostles enjoyed.
We enter into that apostolic fellowship.
Importance of the whole Word of God. Now, we think of this in all sorts of areas and we say, well, take the gospel.
So, I really believe in the need, the necessity for accurate gospel preaching.

[5:48] For accurate gospel doctrine. So, if you read in church history and you read all that’s gone on, what you’re reading about is the fact that there were great divisions over what the Bible meant, when it spoke about justification by faith, what it meant in all those areas of gospel truth that we love. And we say, quite rightly, that it’s important that we have that, as it were, nailed down. That’s not a biblical expression, there are no Greek words for that. But to have the doctrine of the gospel firmly in our mind. But if we just say, we must have the doctrine of the gospel firmly in our minds, and it doesn’t matter too much about other stuff, then in actual fact, we’re not doing ourselves any favours. Now, I’m talking a lot, I don’t really mean to.
It kind of comes natural, so I don’t know if either of you want to add to anything of that or some more.
No, no, I just thought it was a good point that traditions in itself is not a bad word.
I thought you pointed that out in the three references there, 1 Corinthians 11, 2, Thessalonians, the two references. There are, of course, the bad traditions of the Pharisees, and maybe you’re gonna get to that later, but the word itself, traditions, is not an evil word.

[7:10] I don’t know. No, thank you. Anything on that? Yeah, no, I like the way how you introduced it, and I would add, you know, Jude speak of the faith that was passed, and Paul in 2 Timothy speaks of good things, or good deposit, chapter one, so that is the apostolical tradition, and what today we called scripture.

[7:34] Now, maybe I’d like to go to a next step and then maybe see if we agree.
Maybe we may agree to disagree on this, but as we read the scripture, you already mentioned the gospel, and as we read the scripture, or as I read the scripture, I see that there are fundamentals.
Here you have Galatians 1, where it says, cursed anathema be those who change the gospel.
And that is fundamental.
And there are doctrinal things within the apostolic culture, or better called within the scripture, that are fundamental.
Deity of Christ, we just read it.
Or inspiration of the scripture and all that.
But I see that there are maybe secondary issues But when we put them on the scale.

[8:35] We consider them secondary issues.
And then it’ll be like other issues where we maybe we don’t agree.
As you know, we have that in Romans chapter 14 and 15.
Paul already is giving some indications how we to deal with this thing.
So I consider they are fundamental.
There are secondary issues. What are the secondary issues? Uh, huh.

[9:08] Guns at the ready.
Right, okay.
Lord’s Supper, okay. You have that, hold on. I never said a word.
You have in Acts. They were breaking the bread and eating from house to house.
You have in 1 Corinthians, breaking of bread plus eating. You have in small Hesels in Jude, as far as I can remember, that they were agape, feasts of law.
And if we want to go further in the Old Testament, there was that remembrance were linked with the meal.
Okay, so the first Christians, they didn’t have a loaf of bread, They had it actually, but that was part of a meal.

[10:09] Do we do that today? Well, I’m not sure what you’re suggesting.
Are you suggesting in that, that the Lord’s Supper was part of a meal?

[10:17] From Acts, I see that, yeah. Okay, I wouldn’t see that. Now, for all that, it wasn’t until the Apostle Paul came along that the foundation of local church truth was laid.
So you get in Acts 2, that they continue steadfast to the apostles’ doctrine, of fellowship, breaking of bread, and prayers and so on.
I take that to be the breaking of the bread, that is when they met together, as we know later in Troas on the first day of the week, in order to break bread.
I take it that breaking bread from house to house is nothing to do with the Lord’s Supper, I take that to be a common meal.
Like in Luke 24, where the Lord was made known unto them in the breaking of bread, which, was just simply a common meal.
And I do feel that there must be a distinction drawn between the general breaking of bread from house to house, and the Lord’s Supper.
This is a little bit, this is a bit secondary to the main discussion.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So you wouldn’t excommunicate me for that?
I wouldn’t what? Excommunicate me for that? No, no, it’s just I’m not gonna speak to you again.
I’m afraid. No, no. You see, so that’s a secondary issue. That is correct.
But what I would say is this, that I don’t think it would be right if we decided that we would simply, if there’s a few of us having a meal together, break bread in terms of the Lord’s Supper.
Because that’s clearly an assembly function.

[11:45] Where the believers at Troas met together on the first day of the week to break bread.
So I would just draw that distinction. But it’s an interesting group.
I just threw it to see that there are things when we agree to disagree, but that wouldn’t stop to have fellowship together. None, that’s right.
I think, like there used to be a breakdown, people would use that in, what is it now?
In essential things, unity, and non-essential things, liberty, and all things charity.
Now the trouble with that, as you well know, is that what’s essential and what’s not, right?
So it doesn’t really help anybody.
But I think that what I would agree with what Enri is saying in the sense that there are things that a person cannot believe or cannot hold to and still be Christian, if you know what I mean.
Like you cannot not believe in the deity of Christ and be a Christian.
There’s an essential nature to that. I would say that I don’t really see two groups, like things that every Christian believes and then things that we all can disagree on.
I think there is a third group there that it would be very difficult to not hold these doctrines and be in the same local assembly.
Like, say, the role of men and women.

[12:54] A person may be Christian and not hold to the view that we see taught in 1 Corinthians and 1 Timothy, but it would be very difficult to be in the same.
– Because ultimately, a local assembly is a doctrinal fellowship, which is a fellowship that is based on doctrine. Now, I’m listening to all of this, but there is a point that I want to make, which is the whole of doctrine, the whole of Bible teaching, coheres. So it’s not different strands that are hanging down, and the one is not interrelated to the other.
So Bible doctrine is like a tapestry, or a garment, which is a single thing, and as soon as you start pulling threads, you never know exactly how the state of that garment is going to be.
So, this leads us on to another thing, which is not in my notes, but here we go.
One of the things in our present day is my truth, your truth.
Which, by the way, is a total nonsense.

[13:55] My truth, your truth. So people say, oh, well, that’s my truth.
My truth might be actually far removed from the facts of the thing, but it’s my truth.
That’s what I want it to be. And you say, well, no, no, but my truth is this.
And do you know something? Where you’ve got your truth and I’ve got my truth and he’s got his truth.
None of us is wrong. So this is a sort of a post-modern, post-Christian, atheistic world view that there is no such thing as truth. We each have our own truth and each of us is not wrong. This, by the way, for all of you that are students and at universities, this has parallels in modern music and modern art. So if you see Yellow Islands by Jackson Pollock.

[14:50] Which might be somewhere around here on display, if I remember correctly.
But if you do, here’s a painting, the last I knew it was worth 52 million quid.
And the guy poured paint on a canvas and tipped up the canvas and put some yellow splodges on it, called it Yellow Islands, and it would cost you at the last reckoning three or four years ago that I saw it, 52 million.
If you went to see it, if we went to see it, I’d say to you, what does that represent?
Tomorrow.
It represents tomorrow. What does it represent to you? Never seen it.
No, no, that’s not the point. I suppose you did see it. They’re blue dots still.
So I might say squash daffodils and you might say car crash.
So we say to the curator of the museum, what does this mean?
And he would say, well, it means what you want it to mean, that’s your truth, this is my truth, that’s your truth, there is no absolute, it’s just my truth, your truth, so we all go away happy, well I wouldn’t, but you know, you all go away happy, if you listen to John Cage for 4 minutes 33 seconds, right, the orchestra comes in and the conductor and they’re all set ready to go, except they don’t go anywhere because there’s nothing in the piece of music.
It’s not piece of music at all. The orchestra’s there in silence.

[16:13] So you come out at the end of that concert, not that I’ve ever listened to it or whatever you do, I don’t know what you do to that, but you come out at the end of the concert.

[16:24] And you say, what does that mean to you? And someone would say, oh, it means peace.
Another person would say, no, it just means death.
And another person would say this, see, so there’s no absolutes.
Absolutes, you’re all right, nobody’s wrong, in our my truth, your truth society.

[16:40] Everybody’s right. Nobody’s wrong. So you can’t judge me. So people talk about you need to be non-judgmental. That’s an atheistic mindset, to be non-judgmental. We do judge ourselves and we know there are standards by the Word of God. Now the great… sorry about for that big diversion, which is not really, it’s now coming back in, which is this, that it’s ever so possible when we come to the Bible to say, well that’s my truth. That’s the way I see it. And if you don’t see it, say, well that’s okay, or this is my truth, or this is your truth. And we end up thinking what that is, is that one opinion is as good as another. Actually, that isn’t true.
So it comes back to really hermeneutics and how we break down the Bible. Like that has one meaning.
Yes, exactly right. So it comes back to the Bible study we were talking about a bit yesterday.
Exactly right. So the Bible, so a passage might have many applications, but ultimately that passage will have one meaning, as coming from God by his Holy Spirit, that passage will have one meaning. So what I’m really saying on this is, it won’t do for us just to say, my opinion is as good as yours. So we come with care to scripture. So I want to speak just for a moment. Sorry, if this is not quite as much discussion, I just want to say this guy, I really think this is important. If it is that we’re coming to the study of Scripture, we really need to get to grips with the detail of what is being said.

[18:08] It won’t really do to come to scripture and see it as a Monet artwork, just impressionistic.
We really need to come to scripture and say, it says this, I’m able to tell you it says this.

[18:22] Because of this, this, this. We compare this scripture with that scripture we recognize.
So yes, all those important doctrines are there, but what we’re discovering is that the other details are fitting in with that framework of the important doctrine. So the whole thing So I want to encourage all of you to be detailed in your study of the Word of God.
Start at the beginning of a book and go through to the end, because in our day and generation, and every generation has to get its convictions on what the Bible teaches, let us make sure we get our understanding of the Word of God from God Himself in His Word, by the Spirit of God, and to do so with care.
Because I’m hearing people say, in effect, my truth, your truth, not in this meeting, but I hear it and I think it’s a serious issue.
So that’s my first paragraph plus a bit more on my notes.
And I’d really like to say, has anyone else got anything to say?
But we’re not going to do that, because it’s down to – is there anything else you want to come back on?
No, not at the moment.
Okay. Now, what we’re beginning to go into now is to realize this, that just as there is teaching in Scripture about the gospel and we say we must be accurate in our understanding of that.

[19:51] The Bible speaks to us about our personal lives, we’ve been thinking about that, so when it comes to our personal behavior, our living, we need to accurately to understand scripture in relation to that. But then there’s a whole range of truth regarding the local assembly.

[20:09] And as it is that we read about the local assembly, so it is that we really will want to understand what the Bible has to say in relation to it, because this is also really, really important. So we’re living in a day when a whole lot of Christians don’t think twice about where they go to church. They like the pastor, we’ll go there. We like the singing, we’ll go there. They’ve got a great band, we’ll go there. There won’t be anyone coming to Midland Park for that put. Not at the moment, hopefully never. You weren’t there last night, must be. I was. Fantastic.
Anyway, so people are just pick and mix on the churches that they go to, but when you start reading the Bible and you start understanding that the Bible has teaching regarding the local church and the functions of the local church and the functions of people within the local church, then what you begin to see is this, that it is important to understand that and to apply it and live it out as it is in our own personal Christian lives, as it is in our understanding of the gospel. So we don’t have a hierarchy of things, we.

[21:25] Say that the whole of God’s word is important and therefore those same things, those same principles of understanding, we apply to our understanding of the local church. So we take notice a thing like this. This is God’s house, not the building. But the local church is in character house of God. So what that means is that we’re not here just for us. We’re, secondary in the whole event. Actually, the local church is for God.
No, the local church is not for the world.

[22:12] The local church is firstly for God.

[22:16] At the local church is of course comprised of his people, saved and baptized.
But the local church for all it benefits us, for all it helps us in the way that it does, the local church is firstly for God.
So it’s house of God. Sure.
So we’re all together on this. Yes. Amen. Amen. This is good. Yeah.

[22:36] Yeah, I think it’s just an important point like, you know, you Many of us have heard ministry like Shammah defending the lentils or earnestly contending for the faith or Naboth refusing to sell the field.
And it’s just important to state that if that’s going to be applied, it is applied to things found in the Word of God.
We don’t contend for our preferences as if it’s the Word of God, if you understand what I’m saying.
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so and even that would bear and in the local assembly, Certain things that might differ in the UK versus here and even across North America Yes, so we’ll come to that in just a little bit if I if I can just stop you jumping in otherwise You’re gonna throw me, In respect to this I’ll tell you this way. Okay to the right better point to the right than to the left now, If you were to come to my house in Eastbourne on the south coast of England, by the way if you’re ever in England, you’re very welcome to come to our house. But if you come to our house, for all that you’d be very welcome, you will abide by our rules.

[23:48] There are certain things that we do in our house and there are certain things that we do not do in our house. And I bear in mind that one day I’ll be responsible to the Lord for what we allow, what we don’t allow in our house. So if you, If you come to my house with your muddy shoes on, as a stupid example, but if you come to my house with muddy shoes on because you’ve been walking over what we call the South Downs, just outside my town, the highest chalk cliffs along the south coast of England, don’t say it’s nowhere near as high as the Grand Canyon, it’s not, okay?
But it is beautiful. So you’ve been up there walking, you come to my house and you sit on a chair and you put your feet up on my mantelpiece above my open coal fire, I but probably my wife, will say to you, do you mind? Because that doesn’t happen in our house. Suppose someone was to come in our house and light up a cigarette or a vape, we’d say sorry that doesn’t happen in our house and and I am entitled to say that to, Because it’s my house. I pay the bills. I cut the grass. It’s my house, so my rules apply.
To you.

[25:01] So it’s not just simply that I live there. Now I might say to you, oh come and stay with us.
So you might actually come and have two weeks with us. That’s a stretch by the way, but you might come and have two weeks with us, so you will be, it will be your habitation while you’re there.
You are in residence for the time that you’re there, but it’s not your house.
Now the local church is God’s habitation, he is there, but it’s also his house.
So the idea is that, is that his rules apply. In other words, God is the ultimate authority in relation to the local assembly. So when we’re thinking about assembly truth, I just feel That is the first thing that we need to take account of.
So this is what Timothy is saying, Paul is saying to Timothy in chapter 1 verse, in chapter 3, that thou mightest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in house of God, that which characteristically is house of God, church of the living God.
So that’s history. You want anything to add to that? Nope, I fully agree.
Right, you’re going to add something to this in just a moment.

[26:15] So, you come to the Bible, and that’s how it is, and you recognize therefore that what’s important is not what you want, and it’s not your own personal predilection, but the thing that you earnestly desire is that which glorifies God. And how do you know what glorifies God? You know what glorifies God because Actually, it’s revealed in his word. Mm-hmm.
Now, what then is established is a principle. And the principle that is established is that the local church is God’s.

[26:49] Yeah, very good. So you read the Bible and you see there are certain things that are to pertain in the local church.
So there is a distinction between the sexes.
So passages like 1 Corinthians 11, 1 Corinthians 14, 1 Timothy 2, these are distinguishing between the sects.
You do discover things like they remembered the Lord at the Lord’s Supper, as we’ve been speaking about before.
That that happened, it’s the Lord’s desire that that happened.

[27:17] The local church must be a place where it is possible for spiritual gift to be exercised.
And there must be liberty for all spiritual gifts to be exercised within and around and for the building up of the local church, in whatever way.
So we have that as a principle.
There’s no need for me to enlarge on that, I’m sure, but we have that as a principle, except I would just say this to you, get your convictions about that.
Don’t just piggyback other people. Get your convictions. But here now, is where I’m gonna stop talking.
The other thing, let’s start.
The working out of those principles, is going to vary from place to place and time to time.
So I’ve got news for you. None of us is, say, dressed, in the same way as they came to meetings 150 years ago.
William Kelly came to meetings 150 years ago, yes, 150 years ago, and he didn’t look like you in attire.

[28:22] And the women didn’t look like you women are dressed.
And it may be that if you turned up at their meetings, they would be aghast at the way you dress.
And if someone came in, if people came in dressed like that to our meetings, from then we’d be aghast.
So there’s a… so? So the Bible has to speak about dress. It speaks about modesty of dress for women.
It’s saying that dress is not to reveal, it is to cover. But the outworking of that is going to be different from generation to generation, as with speech, as with deportment.
So spiritual principles are capable of application in all generations and culture.
So tell us how Albania is different from here. Okay, so not from here.

[29:16] You see, I moved from Albina to Northern Ireland, and I told them that the sisters don’t wear hats in our meeting.
But I added that they wear veils. And actually, you can see here, the gospel came from the Italians, and as I can see, some sisters from South America, they wear veils, because the veil is more appropriate for our culture.
And actually it was for Italian culture and then that was replicated into Albania.
Yeah.
It’s all the same principle of the head covering, but application of it, heart, bary or veil as is applied.

[30:00] Yeah, so that’s an example of that. I did preach in Northern Ireland once that I thought a veil was actually better than a hat. I’ve sat in meetings and I’ve had hats in front of me where I thought there might be a bird nesting in them. And it seems to me that doesn’t quite have the spirit of head covering teaching, that they didn’t quite appreciate it, to be quite honest with you. But this is a serious matter. I don’t mean to make it light. The point being that the head covering, the head is covered in Albania in that way. And so.

[30:42] That might be a difference and a distinction. I travel to Sri Lanka and in Sri Lanka, you know I’m traveling from the rich West and I’m traveling to a totally impoverished country. I’m out with believers where they have nothing, I mean they have nothing. We were preaching the gospel three years ago probably now, at a man’s house who had fairly recently been saved. It was a brick house that had been built by a charity. The night before we got there wild elephants had, got to the house, they’d smelt grain, they tried to get the grain, they tried to push the house over to get the grain, suddenly realized these elephants that there was a grain store down the road and they went and demolished this brother’s grain store. So, we’re preaching the gospel and I had to tell you, you know, he was… I didn’t think for a moment about what he was wearing. I, actually do at home, but I didn’t think about what he was wearing because actually all he was wearing was all he had.

[31:45] I looked at the man and I thought, this is amazing, he was as happy as today and tomorrow and eternity that the gospel was being preached under his awning of his house and all these Muslim and Buddhist and Catholic neighbours were all there hearing the gospel.
So in Sri Lanka, the outworking of those principles that we seek to work out here will be done in a slightly different way because of their culture, because of their economic situation, because of the point, for instance, there’s differences simply because it’s absolutely boiling hot all the year round.
We’re preaching in 37 degrees with almost 100% humidity, not humility.
That too. Should be 100% humility, 100% humidity we’re preaching in there.
So they’re looking to work out the self-same principles, but they will do so in their culture and they will do so in the way that honors God where they are.
So the working out of biblical principle will differ according to where you are and timing.
But the thing about biblical principle is that it is capable of being outworked in every place.

[33:00] At every time, in every generation, in every circumstance.
So there’s no point saying, no point preaching, no point laying down some kind of law that it must be done in that way, if in fact it can’t be done in that way anywhere where biblical principle is being espoused.
I think that’s a really, really important point, that what we teach must be capable of abdication everywhere that there are believers who are meeting together.
Do you want to add anything else to that? No. Okay, I must have been speaking too much.
Again, I do apologise.
Now, there’s a spirit in which biblical principles have to be applied, a proper spirit.
I think that’s a big thing, isn’t it, amongst us?
To have a proper spirit.
So it seems to me that on this area of things, that there’s two things that must be avoided.
The first is what I think has often been called looseness.

[33:58] So, under that you can’t pick and choose what biblical principles to uphold.
This comes back to the point we had at the beginning. You can’t pick and choose.
It’s not a pick and mix, shelf or store. This is Bible teaching is to be upheld.
We can’t ignore certain parts of it.
So that’s where we’re seeking to apply biblical principle, but we fall short of what should be because it might not fit in with our personal preference.
Well, I won’t do. Might not fit in with what they do up the road, and they’re a very successful church, you know, up the road.
So we say, well, they don’t do that, so why should we? And you know, in an assembly setting, it comes back to this, that this is God’s house and so because it’s God’s house, we need to make sure that we’re not kind of loose in the way that we apply things.

[35:04] The other thing, I think this is diminishing, but the other side of it is that biblical principle can be applied in a very iron-fisted, legalistic way. And what that does is diminish the principle that you’re seeking to uphold. So here’s an example. There was a great brother, he’s with the Lord now, called Mr. Fred Clulow, and he was in the Cloughfern Assembly in Belfast, And he had a great Belfast sense of humour.
And he used to tell me that just after the war, he was in one of the meetings in Belfast, he was in fellowship there.
And two things happened. Number one, the elders insisted that the sisters wore their hats on the way to the meeting.

[36:05] And I think that’s probably not just in Belfast, but that’s happened.
So the Bible teaches really that the sisters should have their heads covered and the men should not have their heads covered in the gatherings of the assembly.

[36:24] But they were insisting beyond that. And what they were doing was insisting that women should have their heads covered on the way to the meeting.
You just can’t substantiate that from Scripture.
And it seems to me that if you do try and substantiate that from Scripture, you are actually diminishing the principle that you’re trying to uphold.
By the same token, the elders used to say to the men in the meeting, they had to wear hats.
No baseball caps, I doubt, back then, but hats, trilbies, bowler hats maybe, caps.
And do you know why they had to do that?
So that when they got to the open air, they could take them off.
So everybody would see that the males didn’t have their heads covered in meetings.
So that might be not a very clever example, but it’s something that I want us to understand.
That if it is that you go beyond and apply what you deem to be a principle in an iron-fisted way and beyond what the Bible teaches, so if looseness comes short of it, legalism goes beyond what the Bible teaches. And that being the case, it diminishes the very thing that, you were trying to uphold. I’m sure there’s other examples of that.

[37:42] Well, I’ll tell you one. I think you both got wedding rings on. I don’t. That’s because…
I don’t know why really. Well, if I was getting married now, I would do. But I’m married 45 years and people did wear wedding rings. Not everybody did. But now, now people have said, that men shouldn’t wear wedding rings. Because James says about a man coming with a gold ring on. It’s absolutely nothing to do with wedding rings.
Can I add something?

[38:17] Yeah, please. And if you’d come in Albania without a wedding ring, you’ll be considered a very dodgy man if you’re married, because you’re not trying to tell others that you’re married.
Yes, exactly. So coming back to if I was getting married again, no, if I was getting married now. I didn’t really, don’t tell my wife. That was a Freudian slip. Scratch that. If I was getting married now, I would certainly have a wedding ring. For that reason. To show women and in our society men, that I actually am a married man. Thank you. And I’m married my wife. So you can’t then say you shouldn’t wear a wedding ring because James says if a man comes to your assembly wearing a gold ring, it’s obviously talking about showiness in James.
And the exhibition of riches. So you can take that scripture and you can apply it in that really legalistic way and you’ve undermined what James is saying.

[39:23] A big one that maybe gets used and then undermined is the one on order. Perhaps you’ve heard that quite a bit that everything needs to be done in order. Like I know cultures where that is applied to mean that the men and women should sit on opposite sides of an auditorium because it will be distracting and if they’re together. And I’m not saying that shouldn’t happen in certain cultures, if that’s what they do, but you can understand why bringing that over to a culture where, or enforcing that on another, you could see how that’s going beyond whether it’s order or, that principle, 1 Corinthians. Yeah, so legality is not obedience to what is written, but it’s an insistence on going beyond what is written. So what that means is this, that we have a duty to obey God in all that he’s taught but to do so in a balanced manner. So we make sure we don’t fall short.

[40:24] So if the Bible… just come back to this matter of head coverings because it’s a, bit of a hot potato in certain parts and in certain circumstances. If we come back, to what the Bible says about head coverings, which by the way apply to the men as much as to the women, that the men are not to have head coverings, the women are to have head coverings in meetings. If we come back to that, it’s, possible to say, well, hmm, yeah, okay, but I feel very uncomfortable wearing a head covering at a gospel meeting.

[40:59] But there’s a principle underlying all of this, which is that whenever it is that we gather together in the presence of God, that’s the principle, that when we gather together, in the presence of God, that men should have their heads uncovered and women should really have their heads covered.
You can apply that in all kinds of other situations. So we might say, well, okay, 1 Corinthians 11 is about the local assembly, which I take, it to be, but at the same time there is clearly a principle that is undergirding that, which, is the distinction between the sexes and in the presence of God, that to be observed and, the men’s… Yes, please.
Can I ask you a question? Should, in your opinion, women have their heads covered at a wedding? Yes, I do think so.
Okay. And at funerals. Okay.
For that reason, it seems to me there’s an underlying principle, which is that you are gathered together in the presence of God, and that being the case, knowing what we do know from 1 Corinthians 11, there should be an observation of that principle.
Now it seems to me that not to do that falls short.
Of the observance of the principle. There’s a deathly silence come over there.
Yeah, we’re all waiting when your ticket out of here is.
I’m not sure I’m getting it.

[42:23] So I’m just stating it as I see it. There is an undergirding principle on 1 Corinthians 11. I believe that to be the case.
I would say that just, I would not take the view that women should have their heads covered at funerals, weddings. The gospel meeting is an interesting one that I won’t go down just now, but funerals and weddings. And I think that the principle in 1 Corinthians 11 is bound by, as it is in all the churches. So I think it is referring not just in that context to assembly meetings, but exclusively to meetings of a local church. So I wouldn’t take it beyond, a meeting that is not a meeting of the local assembly. Okay, so I hear what you’re saying. I don’t agree. We would differ, yeah. Yeah, we would.
And so I take that in 1 Corinthians 11 as in all the churches. Yes, he is saying that, but my point is there is something underlying and undergirding that whole thing, which is there’s an order of headship which is creatorial. That is to be observed amongst the Lord’s people and it’s particularly to be observed amongst the Lord’s people where it is that they gather together in the presence of God. So at a wedding, I don’t know how it is, but, the preamble to the wedding vows in England would be, we’re gathered here to gather in the presence of God to unite this man and this woman in holy matrimony.
But to me, if you’re in the presence of God, this counts.

[43:49] Because maybe we’re directing here, but you’re rooting here.
So, and what about in the Bible study in my home?
No, I’m not telling you what I believe, but what I see from 1 Corinthians 11, but let’s say.
No, we want to know what you believe.
You have in Acts, when Aquila and Priscilla.

[44:13] They took up polos, and they were expounding scripture to him.
So what was the whom Bible study?
When that sister had the head covered, or better, when that brother had the head covered?
Well, the point to me with Priscilla and Aquila is that they’re in a domestic situation.
So they’re not meeting together in the presence of God, as we would say in meetings, or as I would say, in funerals and in weddings.
So they’re just in the domestic circumstances. So we know that they taught them, the way of God more perfectly.
So Priscilla was doing teaching as well as Aquila. In fact, Priscilla might have been, more than, she might have been.
You know, it happens, and you know, good. Perfect, now.
I feel like he’s getting me in a trap here. Nope. I love you, brother.

[45:04] Now, let’s go back to the wedding. Okay.
So a wedding ceremony, a beautiful thing, you know, I’ve been married and in a wedding ceremony and all that, but if we want to go deep, deep, it’s not scripture.
You know what I mean? Okay, so whenever in the scripture, we see a man and a woman coming and then preaching on the wedding and they exchange vows, you know, in the new Testament, in that sense.
Okay. You know what I mean? No, not really. Okay. So there is a couple.
Say that again. Okay. Okay. So.

[45:48] You have a couple, right? And they get married and to the gospel hall, right? She’s from wherever, he’s from wherever, come together, all the assembly come together, visitors and whatever.
So if we want to be, you know, picky in a way, that’s not scriptural, because we don’t have a a wedding ceremony as such, as we do today.

[46:14] In the New Testament, or in Google Fox, or elsewhere.
At that wedding, or that marriage, or another marriage who is being celebrated at the borough council office, is as valid, I believe, as that that has been celebrated in the gospel hall.
You know what I mean? Yes, that is the case, because ultimately, the marriage that you contracted, is according to the law of the land.
Absolutely. And according to the law of the land in a lot of places, I don’t know, we’re everywhere, but I have to say, I had to say to my wife, I don’t know of any lawful impediment why I shouldn’t marry you, and she had to say the same to me.
And I take you to be my wife, and she says the same to me, except I’m her husband.
So those vows have to be, so what you’re saying is that you’re as much married if you exchange those vows in the office of the registrar that’s deaths and marriages as you are if you get married in the gospel. I think you’re saying you shouldn’t get married in the gospel. No I’m not saying that I’m saying that we have the liberty to do that yes but that marriage is as valid in the gospel hall is as valid as being done at the registry office, you know what I mean?
Yes. soon.

[47:28] And that means we have the liberty. So brother so-and-so and sister so-and-so who got married in registry office are as married as myself who got married in the Gospel Hall.
And that is a liberty that we see from the Scripture.
And the woman who’s getting married might have to have a, might in best part of her wardrobe, have a veil on, but it’s part of the ceremony where she might have to take that off, to exchange a kiss, if you do that in the UK as well. I don’t know, I don’t want to, make things awkward for you.
Best bit of the wedding, right? And she might also have to say a few words, which of course, you know, silence of women, but I digress.
Yes, so we recognize that both a wedding and a funeral are slightly different from normal church meetings.
Yeah, that’s what I’m saying. Yes, but my point is this, that the undergirding principle is the same, which we gather together in the presence of God and is to be observed. I believe in that. Now, we could flog that forever and ever, so we’re going to draw a line under that. So those are interesting, things. Here’s another one, all right? We all like examples. I can see you’re all Cracking your ears up on some of this stuff, so this is good.
What about letters of commendation?

[48:53] So to me, a letter of commendation is a very good practice.

[49:00] But if anybody says we cannot receive anybody without a letter of commendation, they’re going beyond what the scripture teaches about letters of commendation.
So if you go somewhere to another assembly, it is good for you to take a letter of commendation.
Of course it is, apart from the fact that it’s the assembly you’re going from, saying you have our commendation, you know it’s carrying greetings and all that from one assembly to the other and that’s good. I suppose actually you had to go there with no notice, you suddenly were in another place, you had a family emergency so you had to travel and you turn up, you want to remember the Lord and the Lord’s Day morning and you don’t have a letter of commendation or you’re telling them you’re coming but you don’t have a letter of commendation, it would be well out of order for the receiving assembly, if they were to not, I say the receiving assembly, if in fact they didn’t receive you simply because you weren’t carrying a bit of paper.

[50:04] Because the principle is not that you’re received only with a letter of commendation, the principle is that you are received on the basis of who you are, the life you’re living and all those sorts of things, a letter of commendation just makes that easier. So what I’m saying is this, it is good practice, but if there is an iron insistence that you cannot be received without a letter, you’re going beyond what Scripture says. Now, not many people are nodding on that, but I want you to think about that. I am not trying to diminish the value of a letter of commendation. I really am not, but it can be diminished by insisting on something that Scripture doesn’t actually teach as a principle. So it’s good practice. Do you Do you want to say anything on that?
Or is it too much of a? No, can I add something?
Yes, please. Right, 2,000 years ago, the letters were the only way of communication. Yes.
Today, we have more ways of communication. Exactly.
And between the two assemblies, between the apostle and an assembly, a local church, Corinthians or anywhere, the only way was a letter.

[51:12] Today, we have emails, we have phone calls, we have, I don’t know, And that letter was there to make sure that the brother or the sister or the person was going to be accepted in this new place where he was going, that he was a real Christian and he was not there as an imposter.
So.

[51:37] The same principle applies. So the way of communications have changed today, have improved, so why not use them?
Yeah, it can be an email of commendation, sorry. No, and I think, I’ll have to think about what you said, but on the other side, having a letter shouldn’t be a free ride, if you will, to any assembly.
After all, if somebody has a letter and it says such and such gospel hall, well, what does that place believe? Especially if you don’t know the brethren who are signing the letter or the place, you’ve never heard of it.
It’d be a very dangerous thing to just receive with a letter, right?
So just on the other side of it. Yeah, absolutely. So care has to be taken all the ways around, in that particular area of things.

[52:20] Good. Now, examples could be multiplied. It’s probably not a good idea to do it, but examples could be multiplied.
But I wonder if we could just grasp really what we’re trying to say, which is this, that we need to understand with the Lord’s help what the Bible is actually teaching, and do our level best with the Spirit’s help to be obedient to it, not to fall short of it, not to go beyond it.
So what that means is then that not with looseness, not with legality, but we ought to do that with love for Christ.
So this comes back to putting Christ in central place in all of our thinking.
And love for Christ, to me, will answer a whole lot of questions in these sorts of areas that we’re talking about. So I love my wife, just to take a lesser example, but I love my wife. We’ve been married 45 years. You know, there’s all sorts of things I could say about that, like murderers get less and all that, but I’m not. But we’ve been married for 45 years, so I love my wife. I’m commanded to love, I love, have always loved, God willing, will.
Because I love my wife, there are certain things I will not do.
And because I love my wife, there are certain things I will do.

[53:46] And those things that I won’t do, it’s not because there’s a law against them.
And the things that I will do is not because there’s a law that I must do.
So it’s not prohibition or that which is mandatory.
But I love my wife.
Now, bring that kind of idea into the assembly. To me a whole lot of questions disappear because if I love the Lord, if we together love the Lord and put Him in His first place, that will lead to loyalty to Him.

[54:23] And where it is that there is loyalty to Christ, there’s a desire to please Him.
So change the picture and think of athletics.
So this is the Olympics now.
In the Olympics, you don’t go in order to win the bronze and you don’t go in order to win the silver, but you do whatever it takes to win the gold. To me in Christian life and living, the big thing is not just to be in the race and not to be happy with bronze or silver in pleasing the Lord, but to go for gold. That might mean you’re misunderstood and it might mean that people might think you’re a bit odd, bizarre, but brothers and sisters, at the, judgment seat, that’s what it’s all about. It’s all about love to Christ, loyalty to Christ, fidelity to Christ, and that involves the working out to gold, standard, as the Lord enables us, of the teaching of his word.
Amen. In the kind of manner that we’ve been thinking of. Now, either of you want to add anything?
We’re pretty well locked.

[55:40] Well, I’ve got one more point, which is this, let us make sure that we do not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

[55:49] So, are we living in a changing world? We are. Are things likely to change in our outworking of principle as time goes by?
Yes, but be careful because I have seen assemblies where I live that were good going, strong, biblical assemblies, and they decided they’d introduce this, which didn’t seem much, introduce that, which didn’t seem much, and in due course of time, over 20-30 years, what’s happened is this, that what didn’t seem much suddenly became an awful lot. You know, how it is, if you get to a fork in the road, it might be just a very small angle, but you follow it down and it gets wider and wider and wider apart, it’s like that, in biblical things and the great possibility is that we can say well that doesn’t matter so much, that doesn’t matter. I’ve seen these assemblies and they’ve become very far removed from any biblical model of a local church and it, all began with very small things. So I’m not saying we’d have to have a thin end of the wedge mentality, that can be very destructive and negative but we really need to be careful that as times change, as we work out biblical principles in different ways, that we don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. You, understand the expression? Balance. Balance. Balance. Balance is the thing.

[57:14] It seems to me that like, it seems to me, just if I can understand the balanced spiritual believer, that person would probably be called both a liberal and a, legalist, because they’re in neither camp, right?
From a liberal or a loose, as you termed it, they’d be viewed as very legalistic and rigid.
But then from people who are going beyond, they’d be viewed as loose.

[57:41] So it’d be a very uncomfortable position to be a balanced believer.
Yeah, you’ll get it from both sides.
But the ultimate thing, and we’ll finish on this, the ultimate thing is this.
Is it well-pleasing to the Lord? Yeah.
Is the only question to answer. Is it well pleasing to the Lord? And in that, let us all seek to go for the gold standard. Well, anyway, may the Lord bless the time, that we spent to, you know, sometimes things like this stimulate our thinking about what the Bible teaches, and that’s what I hoped might be the outcome. I hope that’s the outcome, And may the Lord bless us all together.

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